The problem with the strong (100%) predestination position is that certain Christian activities become meaningless. For instance prayer. Why pray if God is going to bring about what He is has already predestined to bring about regardless?
"But some will say, 'Does He not know without a monitor, both what our difficulties are and what is meet for our interest, so that it seems in some measure superfluous to solicit Him by our prayers, as if He were winking or even sleeping until aroused by the sound of our voice.' Those who argue in this way attend not to the end or the purpose for which the Lord taught us to pray. It was not so much for God’s good, as it was for our good. - John Calvin
Does God "respond" in any way to our prayers? Well, lets assume you are correct here, that it is for our good that we pray and not for God's good (although I'm not quite convinced of this).
If we have no free will, then in what way do our prayers result in "our good" and in fact how do they result in anything other than those things that were already predestined to result in?
Why don't you ask Christ, who said regarding prayer that "your Father knows what you need before you ask Him" (Matt 6:8), and yet still required us to pray.
You might also ask Christ why He prayed in Gethsemane that the Father might let the cup pass by, yet the apostles said to God that all that happened during the episode of the Passion was "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:28).
Well, both those scriptures you brought up seem to indicate free will to me. In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus was expressing a decision to subject his free will in accordance with God's will (otherwise there would be nothing to subject to God that was not already subjected to God).
The other comment about that the Father knows what we need before we pray is only saying that God waits until we pray before he acts.
James 4:2 NASB You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask.
but in scripture we are told not to pray long prayers (for the sake of praying long prayers).
Acts 2:46 talks about predestination but I think we have different views on how predestination works and I am not even convinced that negates free will as Jesus himself said:
John 10:18 NASB "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
The Father commanded, and Jesus obeyed, not from rail car on a rail track sense of predestination but from his own decision to obey the Father.
The problem with Calvinism is that you appear to need to memorize the "Calvinism dictionary" before you can understand what you are talking about and understand the peculiar semantics that Calvinists employ in their understanding of scripture. For instance in Leviticus in talks in numerous places of a "freewill offering" which, as I understand it, Calvinists claim has nothing to do with free will but to do with something they term "volition".
ie: Leviticus 22:18 NASB "Speak to Aaron and to his sons and to all the sons of Israel and say to them, 'Any man of the house of Israel or of the aliens in Israel who presents his offering, whether it is any of their votive or any of their freewill offerings, which they present to the LORD for a burnt offering--
Splat - I'm actually not quoting any "Calvinism dictionary," I'm simply going from scripture. And I'm glad you're responding with scripture, as your original responses were philosophical, and I was trying to steer us back to the word of God.
However, I might point out that you did not directly address the scripture I cited - you instead jumped to other scriptures. In response to Matthew 6:8 you jump to James 2:46, and in response to Acts 4:28 (which you incorrectly cite as Acts 2:46) you jump to John 10:18. Let us not fall into the fallacy of scriptural acrobatics, and let us stay true to the texts we are looking at.
In response to Matthew 6:8, you say that it simply says "the Father knows what we need before we pray is only saying that God waits until we pray before he acts." Could you please show me where it says the Father "waits" until we pray, and then acts? Because that is nowhere in the text. Are you of the opinion of some Word of Faith teachers that prayer is man giving God permission to act? (I only ask this to see if we have presuppositional issues we have to deal with first)
Likewise, you seem to miss the point: your argument is why should we pray if something is predestined - Christ says that we should pray what we wish because the Father already knows what we are asking for. Some false teachers say that we shouldn't pray at all because God knows what we need. However, this is taking the verse to the extreme - we pray even if the Father knows what we are about to say, because we are commanded to by scripture.
In regards to Acts 4:28, you seem to simply shrug it off with "I have a different definition of predestination" and seem to argue whether or not Christ had a will. No one denies that Christ had a will - Calvinists do not even deny man has a will. Nevertheless, that is not our argument. What does the text say?
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." [Acts 4:27-28]
Who brought all this about? The parties of the passion did everything by God's hand and by God's purpose. Those two things predestined everything that happened. The active party in this predestination was God and Him alone.
Now my question was: if Christ knew this was all to happen (as He Himself predicts His passion many times throughout the Gospels, and you yourself cite John's gospel to verify Christ permits it to happen), why then does He pray in the garden? For if it was predestined to happen (as Acts 4:28 and Christ's own predictions affirm), then why would it matter whether or not He prayed? And why would He pray at all?
Your own conclusion, you see, can be used against the Lord Jesus Christ.
You appear to have emphasized a point I was not emphasizing. I did not at all mean that prayer was futile, just that it's purposefulness appeared, to me, to be inconsistent with Calvinism.
You asked me whether I am a word of faith believer. Well, I have been influenced by their teachings in the past but now I prefer to get my understanding directly from the scriptures, without an inbetween, so I guess I was call myself and independent thinker.
My view of predestination, if you haven't look at it already is extensively described at http://splatblogger.wordpress.com/theology/predestination/ I am constantly updating that section on my blog so, even if you have visited, it has probably already been extended.
I am a conditional predestinationist which doesn't negate free will to the same extent as the Calvinist position.
Ok, you wanted scriptures to show that God acts on our prayers. (cf Matt 7:7, Luke 11:13, James 4:2, 1 John 3:22, 1 Tim 2:1-4 ...) There are a plenitude of scriptures. Of course, God created the world before man was even present but I assume you weren't trying to head in that direction.
I don't actually have a problem with Jesus praying in the garden of Gethsemane because I personally don't believe that Jesus was acting in omniscience at that moment. Its not inconsistent with my understanding at all as I am not a total predestinationist. The link above should give you better understanding of that. Its rather lengthy so I didn't try reposting it here.
It is not any more inconsistent than evangelism is. Calvinists do not know who the elect are, hence they are able to follow God's command to evangelize. Likewise, nobody knows whether or not God will grant our prayers, but we are commanded to pray because that is required of Christians. Because let's face it, prayers are not always answered. God is under no obligation when we pray, and does not even have to wait until we pray to provide for us. Therefore, there is no conflict for a Calvinist.
Well, I never said answered prayer was unconditional. However experience, or casual observation, such as "I notice not everyone gets their prayers answered so therefore God only answers those prayers he sovereignly chooses to" is not logical reasoning nor a good way of forming doctrine.
I don't see how it's not logical. God is the only one who can answer prayers, and it is ultimately up to Him whether or not He answers them, hence He is in charge of whether or not they get answered. God is not under any obligation to answer any prayers, and has openly stated in the past that He will not even listen to some prayers (Isa 1:15; Jer 11:14). Christ's prayer in the garden ended with "yet not as I will, but as You will" (Matt 26:39), showing that it is ultimately up to God's will in the outcome of prayer.
Might I ask when you pray and your prayer doesn't come true, what do you ascribe it to? You didn't meet certain criteria akin to a job application, or did God deem it fit not to answer your prayer?
Well, if I pray, and the prayer hasn't come true, and the prayer is biblical, then its because I haven't waited long enough or haven't met the preconditions for having that prayer answered. The following verse pretty much sums it up:
John 15:7 NASB "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Then that is your first problem: your presupposition is that you have to meet a checklist to get your prayer answered. John 15:7 is not saying that, as shown by the previous verse:
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." [John 15:6]
John 15:7 is about God's eternal providence for those who are in Christ - otherwise, you are inadvertently saying that those who pray wrongfully are thrown into a fire. The fact is, the verse says nothing of having to meet preconditions in order for prayer to be answered. That is simply introducing a works-based application to prayer where a person has to do A, B or C for it to happen; and God's fulfillment of that prayer is conditional upon the creation. Likewise, you are placing God on the spot: because His creation met all the standards, He HAS to make the prayer come true. Again, that puts the actions of the Creator as subject to the actions of the creation, taking away God's omnipotence. I would also argue that it presents a dangerous mindset for the Christian: if his prayer doesn't come true, he now has to contend with whether or not he's really saved, or if he prayed "Christian" enough. That's simply a fallacious mindset to lead anyone into.
I have already established from scripture that God has shown He has no obligation to even listen to prayer, and that even Christ prayed that it was dependent upon the will of the Father. You can argue "it's not logical to me!", but we are not supposed to kowtow to your individual sense of logic. We pray because we are commanded to do so, and it shows respect to our Father - regardless of whether or not it comes true, we know it is by God's will, and that He is still in command of our lives.
Well, I wasn't implying anyone should kowtow to my sense of logic. When I was reading it I was rather thinking of the Nizkor pinciples of logic, particularly the "hasty generalization".
Also I don't believe John 15:6 is talking about losing your salvation anymore than Luke 13:1-9, Romans 8:6,13 are talking about losing your salvation. People rather hastily assume that every time the word fire is mentioned that its talking about hell. This is obviously not true from:
Mark 9:49-50 NASB "For everyone will be salted with fire. (50) "Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."
The problem is when we bring our own preconceived notions to scripture rather than allowing the scriptures to speak for themselves.
Splat, with all due respect, I don't think you're really reading what I'm saying, or at the very least you're not reading it in a comprehensive fashion. Previously when I asked where in Matt 6:8 it says God waits for us to pray before acting, you took it as asking for other verses - when that clearly wasn't what I was asking. Now you're taking my statement that John 15:6 and 7 are about those who are in Christ (Christians) and those are not (non-Christians), and claiming that I'm saying John 15:6 is talking about people losing their salvation. That's not my point at all. And as it stands, your use of John 15:7 is still fallacious.
Ok, I wasn't realizing you were talking about one narrow verse (Matt 6:8). However the result of prayer is implied in Matt 6:4 and Matt 6:11. I am assuming you will allow me to consider that verse in its context.
Matthew 6:5 NASB "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
So as they "have their reward in full" from men, not from God, implying that if they don't pray to be seen, by men, they have a reward from God as a result of the prayer.
Again in vs 6:
Matthew 6:6 NASB "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
The confusion, I believe, is misunderstanding the role of the Holy Spirit in prayer.
Pentecostals generally believe that God will not violate our free will, and hence the need for prayer, even though God knows what we need. Calvinists don't believe there is any such thing as free will. This is in essence the reason why Calvinists have difficulty in this area.
All right, please show me where in Matthew 6:8 it says that God waits for us to pray before acting.
In any case, Calvinists don't have a difficulty in this area. I've already explained the Calvinist position. You simply said, "That's not logical!" I explained how it was logical. You went off on John 15:6.
I showed you in Matt 6:5-6. Why are you hung up on that one verse? Are not the verses 5-6 within the context of verse 8? Matt 6:7-8 is talking about not praying long religious prayers to impress men. Its not saying that asking God serves no real purpose.
There's a good audio series on my blog site titled "Prayer 101" in the audio teachings of my blog http://splatblogger.wordpress.com/audio-teachings/ which, if you are interested, provides a good explanation to the Matthew 6 verses on prayer.
No one is saying Matt 6:8 teaches "asking God serves no real purpose" - that's a complete straw man.
The fact is, you have been asked perhaps three times now to show where in Matt 6:8 it says that God waits for us to pray before doing anything. You have yet to provide a response for it. You either jump to other verses or talk about the verses that come before it without directly answering the question.
The other fact is, it has been explained what the Calvinist position is in regards to prayer. You simply called it illogical, but when that contention was replied to, you went off on another straw man without answering the response.
I am still truly wondering if you really are using any kind of reading comprehension with my posts. Earlier you said "I wasn't realizing you were talking about one narrow verse" - that wasn't my point. My point was in two examples (not just Matt 6:8) you could not defend your exegesis of a verse and seemed to have completely miscomprehended what I was saying.
One can only feel that you are continually chasing after other topics because you cannot really address the Calvinist opinion of prayer outside of your presupposition regarding it.
The problem with the strong (100%) predestination position is that certain Christian activities become meaningless. For instance prayer. Why pray if God is going to bring about what He is has already predestined to bring about regardless?
ReplyDelete"But some will say, 'Does He not know without a monitor, both what our difficulties are and what is meet for our interest, so that it seems in some measure superfluous to solicit Him by our prayers, as if He were winking or even sleeping until aroused by the sound of our voice.' Those who argue in this way attend not to the end or the purpose for which the Lord taught us to pray. It was not so much for God’s good, as it was for our good. - John Calvin
ReplyDeleteDoes God "respond" in any way to our prayers? Well, lets assume you are correct here, that it is for our good that we pray and not for God's good (although I'm not quite convinced of this).
ReplyDeleteIf we have no free will, then in what way do our prayers result in "our good" and in fact how do they result in anything other than those things that were already predestined to result in?
To Splat:
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you ask Christ, who said regarding prayer that "your Father knows what you need before you ask Him" (Matt 6:8), and yet still required us to pray.
You might also ask Christ why He prayed in Gethsemane that the Father might let the cup pass by, yet the apostles said to God that all that happened during the episode of the Passion was "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:28).
ReplyDeleteWell, both those scriptures you brought up seem to indicate free will to me. In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus was expressing a decision to subject his free will in accordance with God's will (otherwise there would be nothing to subject to God that was not already subjected to God).
ReplyDeleteThe other comment about that the Father knows what we need before we pray is only saying that God waits until we pray before he acts.
James 4:2 NASB You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask.
but in scripture we are told not to pray long prayers (for the sake of praying long prayers).
Acts 2:46 talks about predestination but I think we have different views on how predestination works and I am not even convinced that negates free will as Jesus himself said:
John 10:18 NASB "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
The Father commanded, and Jesus obeyed, not from rail car on a rail track sense of predestination but from his own decision to obey the Father.
The problem with Calvinism is that you appear to need to memorize the "Calvinism dictionary" before you can understand what you are talking about and understand the peculiar semantics that Calvinists employ in their understanding of scripture. For instance in Leviticus in talks in numerous places of a "freewill offering" which, as I understand it, Calvinists claim has nothing to do with free will but to do with something they term "volition".
ie:
Leviticus 22:18 NASB "Speak to Aaron and to his sons and to all the sons of Israel and say to them, 'Any man of the house of Israel or of the aliens in Israel who presents his offering, whether it is any of their votive or any of their freewill offerings, which they present to the LORD for a burnt offering--
Splat - I'm actually not quoting any "Calvinism dictionary," I'm simply going from scripture. And I'm glad you're responding with scripture, as your original responses were philosophical, and I was trying to steer us back to the word of God.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I might point out that you did not directly address the scripture I cited - you instead jumped to other scriptures. In response to Matthew 6:8 you jump to James 2:46, and in response to Acts 4:28 (which you incorrectly cite as Acts 2:46) you jump to John 10:18. Let us not fall into the fallacy of scriptural acrobatics, and let us stay true to the texts we are looking at.
In response to Matthew 6:8, you say that it simply says "the Father knows what we need before we pray is only saying that God waits until we pray before he acts." Could you please show me where it says the Father "waits" until we pray, and then acts? Because that is nowhere in the text. Are you of the opinion of some Word of Faith teachers that prayer is man giving God permission to act? (I only ask this to see if we have presuppositional issues we have to deal with first)
Likewise, you seem to miss the point: your argument is why should we pray if something is predestined - Christ says that we should pray what we wish because the Father already knows what we are asking for. Some false teachers say that we shouldn't pray at all because God knows what we need. However, this is taking the verse to the extreme - we pray even if the Father knows what we are about to say, because we are commanded to by scripture.
In regards to Acts 4:28, you seem to simply shrug it off with "I have a different definition of predestination" and seem to argue whether or not Christ had a will. No one denies that Christ had a will - Calvinists do not even deny man has a will. Nevertheless, that is not our argument. What does the text say?
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." [Acts 4:27-28]
Who brought all this about? The parties of the passion did everything by God's hand and by God's purpose. Those two things predestined everything that happened. The active party in this predestination was God and Him alone.
Now my question was: if Christ knew this was all to happen (as He Himself predicts His passion many times throughout the Gospels, and you yourself cite John's gospel to verify Christ permits it to happen), why then does He pray in the garden? For if it was predestined to happen (as Acts 4:28 and Christ's own predictions affirm), then why would it matter whether or not He prayed? And why would He pray at all?
Your own conclusion, you see, can be used against the Lord Jesus Christ.
You appear to have emphasized a point I was not emphasizing. I did not at all mean that prayer was futile, just that it's purposefulness appeared, to me, to be inconsistent with Calvinism.
ReplyDeleteYou asked me whether I am a word of faith believer. Well, I have been influenced by their teachings in the past but now I prefer to get my understanding directly from the scriptures, without an inbetween, so I guess I was call myself and independent thinker.
My view of predestination, if you haven't look at it already is extensively described at http://splatblogger.wordpress.com/theology/predestination/ I am constantly updating that section on my blog so, even if you have visited, it has probably already been extended.
I am a conditional predestinationist which doesn't negate free will to the same extent as the Calvinist position.
Ok, you wanted scriptures to show that God acts on our prayers. (cf Matt 7:7, Luke 11:13, James 4:2, 1 John 3:22, 1 Tim 2:1-4 ...) There are a plenitude of scriptures. Of course, God created the world before man was even present but I assume you weren't trying to head in that direction.
I don't actually have a problem with Jesus praying in the garden of Gethsemane because I personally don't believe that Jesus was acting in omniscience at that moment. Its not inconsistent with my understanding at all as I am not a total predestinationist. The link above should give you better understanding of that. Its rather lengthy so I didn't try reposting it here.
ReplyDeleteIt is not any more inconsistent than evangelism is. Calvinists do not know who the elect are, hence they are able to follow God's command to evangelize. Likewise, nobody knows whether or not God will grant our prayers, but we are commanded to pray because that is required of Christians. Because let's face it, prayers are not always answered. God is under no obligation when we pray, and does not even have to wait until we pray to provide for us. Therefore, there is no conflict for a Calvinist.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWell, I never said answered prayer was unconditional. However experience, or casual observation, such as "I notice not everyone gets their prayers answered so therefore God only answers those prayers he sovereignly chooses to" is not logical reasoning nor a good way of forming doctrine.
ReplyDeleteI don't see how it's not logical. God is the only one who can answer prayers, and it is ultimately up to Him whether or not He answers them, hence He is in charge of whether or not they get answered. God is not under any obligation to answer any prayers, and has openly stated in the past that He will not even listen to some prayers (Isa 1:15; Jer 11:14). Christ's prayer in the garden ended with "yet not as I will, but as You will" (Matt 26:39), showing that it is ultimately up to God's will in the outcome of prayer.
ReplyDeleteMight I ask when you pray and your prayer doesn't come true, what do you ascribe it to? You didn't meet certain criteria akin to a job application, or did God deem it fit not to answer your prayer?
Well, if I pray, and the prayer hasn't come true, and the prayer is biblical, then its because I haven't waited long enough or haven't met the preconditions for having that prayer answered. The following verse pretty much sums it up:
ReplyDeleteJohn 15:7 NASB "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Then that is your first problem: your presupposition is that you have to meet a checklist to get your prayer answered. John 15:7 is not saying that, as shown by the previous verse:
ReplyDelete"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." [John 15:6]
John 15:7 is about God's eternal providence for those who are in Christ - otherwise, you are inadvertently saying that those who pray wrongfully are thrown into a fire. The fact is, the verse says nothing of having to meet preconditions in order for prayer to be answered. That is simply introducing a works-based application to prayer where a person has to do A, B or C for it to happen; and God's fulfillment of that prayer is conditional upon the creation. Likewise, you are placing God on the spot: because His creation met all the standards, He HAS to make the prayer come true. Again, that puts the actions of the Creator as subject to the actions of the creation, taking away God's omnipotence. I would also argue that it presents a dangerous mindset for the Christian: if his prayer doesn't come true, he now has to contend with whether or not he's really saved, or if he prayed "Christian" enough. That's simply a fallacious mindset to lead anyone into.
I have already established from scripture that God has shown He has no obligation to even listen to prayer, and that even Christ prayed that it was dependent upon the will of the Father. You can argue "it's not logical to me!", but we are not supposed to kowtow to your individual sense of logic. We pray because we are commanded to do so, and it shows respect to our Father - regardless of whether or not it comes true, we know it is by God's will, and that He is still in command of our lives.
Well, I wasn't implying anyone should kowtow to my sense of logic. When I was reading it I was rather thinking of the Nizkor pinciples of logic, particularly the "hasty generalization".
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html
Also I don't believe John 15:6 is talking about losing your salvation anymore than Luke 13:1-9, Romans 8:6,13 are talking about losing your salvation. People rather hastily assume that every time the word fire is mentioned that its talking about hell. This is obviously not true from:
Mark 9:49-50 NASB "For everyone will be salted with fire. (50) "Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."
The problem is when we bring our own preconceived notions to scripture rather than allowing the scriptures to speak for themselves.
Splat, with all due respect, I don't think you're really reading what I'm saying, or at the very least you're not reading it in a comprehensive fashion. Previously when I asked where in Matt 6:8 it says God waits for us to pray before acting, you took it as asking for other verses - when that clearly wasn't what I was asking. Now you're taking my statement that John 15:6 and 7 are about those who are in Christ (Christians) and those are not (non-Christians), and claiming that I'm saying John 15:6 is talking about people losing their salvation. That's not my point at all. And as it stands, your use of John 15:7 is still fallacious.
ReplyDeleteOk, I wasn't realizing you were talking about one narrow verse (Matt 6:8). However the result of prayer is implied in Matt 6:4 and Matt 6:11. I am assuming you will allow me to consider that verse in its context.
ReplyDeleteYou didn't even do that. You jumped to all these other verses, just as you did with Acts 4:28, and again with John 15:7.
ReplyDeleteI'll perfectly allow you to consider a verse in its context when I see you doing so :)
Matthew 6:5 NASB "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
ReplyDeleteSo as they "have their reward in full" from men, not from God, implying that if they don't pray to be seen, by men, they have a reward from God as a result of the prayer.
Again in vs 6:
Matthew 6:6 NASB "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
The confusion, I believe, is misunderstanding the role of the Holy Spirit in prayer.
Pentecostals generally believe that God will not violate our free will, and hence the need for prayer, even though God knows what we need. Calvinists don't believe there is any such thing as free will. This is in essence the reason why Calvinists have difficulty in this area.
All right, please show me where in Matthew 6:8 it says that God waits for us to pray before acting.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, Calvinists don't have a difficulty in this area. I've already explained the Calvinist position. You simply said, "That's not logical!" I explained how it was logical. You went off on John 15:6.
I showed you in Matt 6:5-6. Why are you hung up on that one verse? Are not the verses 5-6 within the context of verse 8? Matt 6:7-8 is talking about not praying long religious prayers to impress men. Its not saying that asking God serves no real purpose.
ReplyDeleteThere's a good audio series on my blog site titled "Prayer 101" in the audio teachings of my blog http://splatblogger.wordpress.com/audio-teachings/ which, if you are interested, provides a good explanation to the Matthew 6 verses on prayer.
No one is saying Matt 6:8 teaches "asking God serves no real purpose" - that's a complete straw man.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is, you have been asked perhaps three times now to show where in Matt 6:8 it says that God waits for us to pray before doing anything. You have yet to provide a response for it. You either jump to other verses or talk about the verses that come before it without directly answering the question.
The other fact is, it has been explained what the Calvinist position is in regards to prayer. You simply called it illogical, but when that contention was replied to, you went off on another straw man without answering the response.
I am still truly wondering if you really are using any kind of reading comprehension with my posts. Earlier you said "I wasn't realizing you were talking about one narrow verse" - that wasn't my point. My point was in two examples (not just Matt 6:8) you could not defend your exegesis of a verse and seemed to have completely miscomprehended what I was saying.
One can only feel that you are continually chasing after other topics because you cannot really address the Calvinist opinion of prayer outside of your presupposition regarding it.